I’m writing this with a fair bit of hesitation for the can I might be opening here.
I beg everyone to approach this topic with some humility, maturity, and a healthy dose of salt because it isn’t just about the folks mentioned specifically here; I think that all of us, at one point or another, have been in these situations.
Lately, there have been some – well, let’s call them unpleasant happenings – in a couple of the blog circles I travel. At one point a week or so ago, Falcon posted an entry that brought up the idea that a great many men like to watch women having sex. This offended Gerry over at TwoBlueDay, and he put up a post about being offended and about removing Falcon from his blogroll. I kind of cringed a little; I don’t like it when my friends don’t get along.
Both gentlemen emailed me to ask if I thought they were overreacting, and my response to both of them was no. To each, I expressed my rock-solid belief that they have a perfect and unassailable right to their opinions and, further, to put those opinions up on their own blogs. I tried to mediate the situation a bit by explaining to each of them what I think I understand of the other, but in the end I hope I managed to get across the idea that I respected their rights to their views, both about content and each other.
I was talking to Auntie about it the other night, and asked her what she thought. She reads both Falcon and Gerry, and Gerry had asked me specifically about whether or not Auntie was offended by Falcon’s post (Auntie is a lesbian, and Falcon mentioned that girl-on-girl sex as one of the things that many men enjoy watching). I told him that I would be mightily surprised if she was bothered by the post; my sister does not offend easily and, in fact, can ride out quite a lot without ever even getting her hackles up. Still, I asked her, and her response was somewhere along the lines of “oh, hell no.”
It was at that point that I thought it might be a good idea to have this conversation in the open; to talk about the edges of blog propriety (if there even IS such a thing) and about respecting one another’s right to say or show what s/he feels is necessary and appropriate for their forum. I thought this might be a good opportunity to discuss tolerance and not taking things personally, and about whether or not a link on a blogroll constitutes an endorsement of all the material found on a blog. I wanted an opportunity to talk about how to disagree with someone – even vehemently – and still respect that person. I emailed everyone involved and asked for permission to put this out in public, got that permission, and started thinking about how best to present it.
As I was composing this post in my head, something else happened. Kizz had written a Ten Things Tuesday about the Olympics, and was heartily bothered by a comment that Gerry left in response. She challenged him, in another comment, to try to word his responses such that they didn’t have the potential to instantly raise the ire of the authors; she found him combative and difficult, and invited him to phrase his comments so he comes off as being a bit more open to conversation.
All of this feels really icky to me, but I’m not one to shy away from what I see as a seriously rich opportunity for growth and learning.
Let me say here, with no equivocation, that I respect everyone involved in these (mis)adventures. Do I always agree with what everyone – these folks, or anyone else – has to say? Of course not; I’m not sure that it’s untrue that there’s EVER been a blogger that I’ve read who hasn’t rubbed me the wrong way at one point or another. Sometimes I engage the writers in my disagreement, sometimes I don’t, but I almost always find that, despite some misgivings I may have, I still respect them.
So, I’m opening this up for conversation – polite and respectful conversation. How do you handle authors whose tone gets under your skin? Where’s the line that defines “offensive” to you? What’s the difference between a spirited commenter and a troll? Have you ever crossed a line with a blogger? How did you handle the situation? How do you navigate the inherent problems with written communication (that there is no inflection or body language to be read along with the words)? In short, how do YOU work the tough spots in this blogging life we’ve chosen?
*Edited to include: Gerry wrote a really good piece about the nuances of language and interpersonal communication this morning that, I think, really adds an important component to this discussion. PLEASE go and read; he said it far better than I… )
Thanks for specifically saying that it’s all written communication. So often the internet gets blamed for a lack of inflection and people don’t acknowledge that letters and memos lacked inflection for eons before Al Gore gifted us with the internet.
I wrote a lot of letters before the internet came along. Tons of letters. I love writing letters. So maybe I had some practice at this whole no inflection thing before. Or maybe it’s because I come across relatively poorly in person on first through at least third impressions so I know that I have to work very hard to make myself understood but this whole having to clarify oneself and treading somewhat lightly in writing doesn’t bother me. I like it. Talking to people live makes me soil myself, writing to them I could do all day long.
That said, I make a lot of mistakes. One in particular springs to mind because I still feel badly about it a couple years later. I was (and still am) trying to work out why I continue sometimes to read blogs that make my blood boil. Why do I keep reading when it’s just the story of someone’s very personal life and they keep making choices that make me want to shake them really hard? I still don’t know. But I posted about it, looking for some affirmation or some feedback or advice, and in the post I used and linked to 2 examples. I don’t have the exact wording but I said that I still felt compelled by their stories though I figured we’d come to blows if we had dinner together. One woman didn’t respond, though I suspect she read it, the other woman responded via e-mail and was very hurt by it. I apologized and tried to explain myself but the damage was done and now I really don’t have to worry about ever having dinner with her. She has since changed jobs and become a much more prominent presence in this land of the internet. She’s also entirely privatized her personal blog then reopened it. I don’t read her regularly because I kind of feel like I don’t deserve to encroach on her life like that. In the recent post-Blogher photo blitz this woman shows up all the time. She is apparently a glorious dinner companion and an all around great person and a number of bloggers I admire and read avidly are good friends of hers. I’m now sort of afraid that I won’t be able to ever meet those people because of this stupid, ill-thought-out thing I expressed poorly years ago. Maybe that’s giving the incident too much credit, she probably wouldn’t even remember me, but I still feel I haven’t done proper penance.
The internet is a huge cocktail party. We have to treat people carefully and give them time and tools to get to know all of us.
I dunno- I went over and read both blogs and my first feeling is that I’ve seen a lot worse elsewhere. I think the two things done there that I’d never do myself is to publicly announce I’m removing a blog link, and to criticize somebody else’s blog post on mine. For me that crosses a line, and is just asking for trouble. I know several bloggers I like and admire a lot who every once in a while put up something I really disagree with, and I usually just let it go -why pick a fight over a single opinion? If somebody’s blog annoys me too much I’ll probably just stop reading it. No big deal, and not worth announcing to the world.
That having been said- Falcon is full f s–t about Iraq… Damn! Bad Col-Col! Bad!
Kizz, I totally agree with your first two paragraphs. Especially the last sentence of paragraph 2. Me too. Might be why we write to each other all day long.
That said, I think the one difference with email/internet and letters/memos is speed. I can comment and reply faster, sometimes before I have thought my thoughts through completely. It can happen as fast as blurting out something stupid (John Mayer: My Stupid Mouth), but in the internet, noone can see me clap my hand over my mouth and blush.
I don’t mean to say that any of the parties mentioned here didn’t think their posts through… I’m just agreeing and riffing with what Kizz said.
Kizz, for what it’s worth, I think that you’re pretty much off the hook as far as your gaff goes; “years” is a long time, and a lot changes in that span. Besides, anyone who can hold a grudge for that long doesn’t deserve you.
Colonel, I don’t want this to be a discussion specifically about these bloggers, but I appreciate your input, nonetheless. Personally, I didn’t think any of them crossed any of MY lines, but the point is, really, that those lines are mine and I don’t get to tell anyone else what is or is not okay for them. Kizz is right; it’s really just a big cocktail party and we’re all trying to figure out how to get along with everyone else.
oh, MAN, JRH; do I agree with you! Sometimes, I’ll compose a comment or a post offline and let it sit for a bit, then come back to it and decide whether or not I REALLY want that out there. I hate that I can’t delete my own comments from some sites, because you’ll notice I started that last sentence with “sometimes,” and “sometimes” is often insufficient…
Since some hoopla with family and friends over what goes into my blog I almost never post before I’ve let something sit anymore. It’s not as constricting as I thought it would be though I still hate that I have to edit them out of my writing. You’re right, though, JRH it’s the immediacy which makes it more…dangerous? Volatile?
The one thing I give myself credit for is that if I’m at that “OH GOD WHAT ARE YOU THINKING?!?!?!” stage with someone’s post I rarely post a comment. If I can’t phrase it in a way that’s a discussion then I walk away. Sometimes I go back repeatedly to read other people’s comments and have to force myself to walk away over and over again but so far so good with the walking away. The only problem there is that I do the walking away or ignoring things commented on my own blog, too, so that when I’ve finally had enough and take a stand in my own space it may seem as though I’m overreacting to one incident when in fact I’ve been stewing over a pattern for a while and have finally decided it needs to stop.
Chili, I think it’s highly probable that this woman has forgotten not only the incident but me in my entirety and would only make the connection if I went to great pains to point it out to her. I, on the other hand, still feel like a tool. She was going through a super shitty time and my weight wasn’t needed on the dogpile. You know?
I most definitely do not believe a link is an endorsement of everything on that site. I read many varied people who definitely do not hold the views that I do; that doesn’t mean they do not have something important to say nor that their convictions are less valid than mine. Of course, there are just as many blogs I do not read because I find them offensive.
It is very easy to be misconstrued in blogs and comments, because unlike a printed letter, comments are read as if the other person is speaking. Therefore the lack of inflection does affect perception. But, then again, we all know that and should be able to compensate fairly well.
Let me preface this by saying that I am not easily offended, so I may allow for more “wiggle room” than others.
First, I do believe that one’s blog is like their own social circle. Some readers are closer to the blogger than others, some linked blogs are merely admired from afar. Ultimately, anyone who chooses to disassociate with another blogger because of a comment, picture, point of view, etc., has the absolute right to do so. At the same time, when within one’s own blog, I can’t imagine that holding back opinions about sex or any other societal issue is necessary. I guess my bottom line is that Joe Schmo can write about the lives of seven-legged Martians and I can choose to ignore him. I hate censorship, so the idea that I would ever have to hold back my own view, on my own blog, is scary. Note: I’m not talking about breaking laws, endangering children, etc. There is always a line somewhere.
Second, once the decision has been made to remove someone from your social circle, or blogroll, I see no reason to make an announcement about it. If it is something about which you feel strongly, contact the person in question and address your concern. Hell, I could even seen the value of addressing the concern (possibly veiled?) on your own blog. I just fail to see what is gained by simply stating “I removed Joe Schmo from my blogroll because he talked about Martians”. Another note here: I am not referring specifically to anyone in this particular situation. While I do not have a blog of my own, I am an active member on a message board with many personality types and opinions. I’ve witnessed many disagreements and a large number of people who felt it necessary to announce when they put someone on their “ignore list”.
Third, I am much like Mrs. Chili in my general view of people (blog or otherwise). I have disagreed with lots of close people in my life, but still respect many of them and enjoy hearing what they have to say. When an opinion of theirs gets under my skin, I either let it slide or I confront it. Rarely has something like that ever changed my deepest feelings about the person, though I’ll admit to having some of my personal views get shaken on occasion. I know for a fact that the people closest to me have strongly disagreed with some of the choices I’ve made in my life, but they have stood by me anyway. I’d like to think that I do the same for others. If someone has bothered me enough, then I just don’t feel that they are worth my energy, positive or negative, and I let them go.
Looks like lots of people have said what i would say better and before.
Ahem. However;
If i read something that offends me, and i have to say that rarely happens, i just don’t go back there. If it’s someone i’ve been reading for a while, i might ask them a question about it. If it keeps happening, i’ll stop reading them.
Seriously, the most common reason i stop reading someone is that i am bored.
But i would never write a post chastising the blogger and announcing that i was breaking up with them.
I’m not everyone’s cup of tea, and not everyone is mine. It’s okay.
Meno took my answer.
In all seriousness, I wouldn’t visit the blog in question for a while. If I can be fair about reading the blog again I will. I don’t get my knickers in a knot about most internet things, though, because you just never know the intention.
I like the analogy of the cocktail party–move along when conversations go in directions I don’t want to go in.
In my head that all makes sense, sorry if I’m not being concise.
I learned (or so I thought) how dangerous e-mails / message boards / blogs / comments on blogs could be just before I got married. I had e-mailed those who were invited to my bachelor party (yes, obviously, all guys) about the plans for the party. One of my buddy’s girlfriend saw the e-mail and commented on it. Another buddy responded to her comment fairly vehemently (at least, so I thought). I, without thinking or at least pausing to let my knee-jerk reaction pass, wrote a more vehement response to him.
I damn near lost a friend that day.
(Chili, please apologize to MIL for my language just now, ok?
)
The written word does not allow for tone of voice or inflection. What you see is what you get. It is FAR too easy to misinterpret what is written unless the writer goes out of his / her way to indicate that he / she is trying to be funny or sarcastic or whatever, which can be a pain in the ass to do.
I stumbled across TwoBlue’s statement about me purely by random chance. The initial reasons he gave for removing me were completely valid. I hardly ever read his blog. I never added him to my blogroll. I had never, until that day, left a comment on his blog.
(none of the above had anything to do with the quality of his blog, btw)
As far as I’m concerned, his other reason for removing me is also valid. If he’s offended, he’s offended. He has that right. As I said to him in my response to his removal announcement (in which, btw, he left me unnamed, but I was able to put two and two together), different people respond to things in different ways. C’est la vie.
However, as Chili pointed out to me, it’s my blog. Therefore, I have the right to write about whatever I want to…
…so long as I have the big boy pants to handle whatever responses I illicit with my ramblings.
Oh, btw, Colonel Colonel, if you want to head on over to the Eyrie and educate me about Iraq, feel free.
That is NOT a challenge or an invitation to a knock-down, drag-out political bender. If I’m wrong about something, I’m wrong about something, and I’m perfectly willing to admit I could be wrong with what I said about Iraq.
I just want to hear the counter-arguments, that’s all.
See comment #12? This is one of the primary reasons that I love and respect Falcon. He’s perfectly willing to entertain others’ points of view and, for as long as I’ve known him, has never been unwilling to change his opinions when faced with valid reasons to do so.
Okay, time for one of the perps to chime in.
Announcing dumping a blog was pretty bush league, and I’ve done it more than once. One I was intending to dump, I didn’t anyway.
Now, let’s start with Kizz. Here’s the deal: I read her blog every day. She has a life which she relates on there, and I like reading about it. It is completely different from my life. Most days, I have little to say, it is enough that I can look in. I think that most of the times I comment, my real comment should have been: “I still read you every day and this comment is to say I’m still here”. Since I correspond blogishwise with people close to her, I guess I started considering her “extended family” in the bloggy sense. So, I was just me. I felt totally chagrined that my comments annoyed her. So chagrined I promised not to inflict myself on her anymore, and took her off my blogroll. I wasn’t mad, just felt like, I don’t know, an idiot. So, I’m gonna break my promise to her, and cast a comment which might be a bit more acceptable. I’ll even call it an apology. She didn’t hurt my feelings, she just stuck up for herself.
NHFalcon. This is a bit more complex, and I’ll try to be clear. Yes, he can say whatever he wants. And . . . hell, this comment will get too long. Maybe I’ll just go straight to the source.
As for mrschili: have no trepidation in saying what you want. This isn’t exactly “airing dirty linen” you know. You are brave and kind, and probably dealing with your own children is hard enough without sorting out my childish shit!
Okay, better get at it.
If I’ve been reading a blog for a while and the blogger says something I don’t agree with or that I find offensive, I take it in context with everything else I’ve read on the blog. I usually only make a comment if I find something offensive if it’s something unrelated personally to the blogger. For example, I’ve called someone out for what I believed to be a callous post about welfare. They are not on welfare. I disagreed about their perception of it and wanted to present my point of view. If, however, they were writing about their family on welfare and I disagreed with something they said, I would probably have not commented. If it was offensive enough I may have stopped reading the blog for a while. Also, I only disagree or voice an opposing opinion if I’ve been a regular commenter on the site.
I think we all agree that comments should be respectful and that you can even respectfully disagree. The problem arises, as others have noted, when nuance and tone are lost through the writing process.
I think we also run into problems when bloggers seem to be soliciting opinions but really only want to hear ones that are similar to their own. It’s an entirely different matter than what you are writing about but I have seen it come up on other boards.
Comments in response to a post are part of the conversation, but if someone is offended by either post or comment, shouldn’t that create an opportunity to continue the discussion?
A simple “What did you mean by that?” would go a long way.
I have to say that I have had some thoughts about whether or not to add someone to my blog roll because of the content of their blog. Initially I felt like I didn’t want to be associated with them and their views. You know, you can tell a lot about someone by the company they keep. I have since changed my mind.
It comes down to this; there is some stuff that I read out there that I just don’t like. Some of it really gets under my skin. It’s really those responses that I have that usually illicit the most growth in me. Why am I having such an emotional response to this? Is it because they are saying what I wish I could? Or is it because I feel like they are misinformed about the subject? Either way, it gives me a chance to stretch my brain a bit.
As far as NHFalcon’s post with the bud light girls… Umm, I loved that commercial. It was funny! Does that make me a womanizer? Nope. In fact, if you know me you would say that couldn’t be further from the truth. I see it for what it is; funny. And do you have any idea how much money those GROWN woman made off of that? Me neither but I bet it was a lot.
That’s all I got for tonight, my brain is fried from work today.
For the record, I totally don’t get into girl-on-girl sex.
The one thing I love about blogging is that I say what’s on my mind. After all, it is my blog.
It’s your blog (any of you) and please write about what pleases you and reflects what you are thinking. I enjoy reading your posts in part because, somehow, I stumbled onto your blogsite and stayed there. It might be the six links to Kevin Bacon thing or whatever. I enjoy reading all of your posts because you are individual adults that have different points of view. Well, hey! Isn’t his diversity? I’m loving it.
I can agree, disagree, post a comment or not..but I will continue to read. If something any of you writes pisses me off, well then, I can look at it and cogitate or just say, WTF? You are family of sorts, just like my flesh and bones family are, and I say WTF about them all off the time.
Y’all keep speaking your minds. It’s good for the environment.
At least my environment.
Hygiene Dad – SNORT! Leave it to you to make me bust out laughing in one of the most serious posts I’ve put up in a long time.
I’m pleased by the work that’s being done here. This is something that DOES affect us all, I think. I find, particularly because people in my real life read my blog, that I do self-censor, and sometimes I really frickin’ hate that, so much so that the thought has occurred to me to open up a new site somewhere else and post entirely anonymously, but I’ve not gotten worked up enough to go that far.
When someone I read regularly says something that hits me the wrong way, I tend to do what Auntie does – I ask myself what it is about ME that’s causing me to react the way I do. My first instinct isn’t to bash the author, but to do some self-investigation to see why my buttons are being pushed. Sometimes, I’ll actively disagree with someone; most of the time, I just let it go – it all has to do with the relationship I feel I have with the author (and they ARE relationships we have with one another, whether we’ve met in the real world or not).
Keep it coming, You Guys; this is good stuff…
Blog/comment behavior/etiquette/etc.: I don’t think about it much beyond governing my expectations of what I’m going to get back based on what I put out. I spent 13 years on Usenet, so I’m pretty thick-skinned. If I’m an ass, then be an ass back. (If you’re an ass first, though, I’m taking you out at the knees, particularly if you’re making it personal and you don’t know me.)
Lesbian sex: Eh, not so much. Just watching them make out can be pretty hot, though. Now make it a steamy MMF, and we’re talking.
The anonymous blog: Yeah, I want one too, but exclusively for grossities. For example, just this evening, Aaron liquishat three different places in the bathroom besides the toilet, and did so not 30 seconds after I’d finished eating a Domino’s grease bomb. So I had to clean it up with my stomach roiling, and trying very hard not to think about how much worse it would be to have to deal with the current mess plus two thirds of a used bacon cheeseburger pizza. I made it.
Ok Hygiene Dad, as a lesbian, I’m thinking boy on boy is pretty hot too. Just sayin’, I like diversity!
Oh Mrs. Chili. You are always so sensible, tolerant and fair with your opinions and express them so well. I always think you’re right. I’m trying to think of something you said I haven’t agreed with. I’m sure it’s there, but like you, I respect people and have tolerance, so I don’t even remember what it was or when it was or if it was.
I’m new to blogging, so I can’t really answer all those questions you put out–or any of them well, for that matter. However, I have recently been rubbed a little wrong by some things I have read, but it was because someone got offended at a comment. This person put the comment up to read, and it didn’t seem that bad to me. (I had even previously thought some of the same things that were in the comment.) I thought the blogger was being overly senstive. My opinion was that if you put things out there for the world to see, you better be able to take it when someone disagrees with you or calls you on it. But I also think people who comment can sometimes be nicer, and there are things that could be left unsaid entirely, and if there is a true need to say them, an e-mail might be a better place for it than the comments.
This is so funny because I have actually thought about doing a post on this, but my instances of this are so small compared to what you have, and I really don’t want to get into the criticizing business, which is how it would sound coming out of my mouth. (It doesn’t sound like criticizing at all coming out of yours.)
I’ve heard of “trolls,” but I’m not sure if there is a definition. To ME a troll would be someone who was blantantly negative and hateful who did it anonymously. If someone puts their name and has legitimate contact information, they at least are not a bully in hiding.
Something else I have thought of in my short time at blogging has been that sometimes there are things I would like to say, but I realize I will be saying them to anyone in the world that wants to read them, and sometimes those things could be offensive to certain segments of the population. If those things are just my opinions and not my deep values (opinions vs. things like you have posted about your Holocaust Fellowship), then I should just leave them alone and not piss off the world with a rant I have about stupid people. Yes, it’s my blog and I can do whatever I like with it, but what am I gaining by spouting off personal opinions that irritate other people? (Not that I will never do this, but I try to carefully think about these things first. My things are mostly about group behavior and not things like you mentioned.)
I’m thinking this comment is getting way too long and is somewhat disjointed, but I couldn’t be quiet on it. To sum it up: 1) Don’t write things and expect everyone to agree, 2) be nice!
There was apparently some hoopla at Blogher with people being misunderstood both in print and in person. Blurb (blurbomat.com) has just written a post that seems tangentially sort of relevant to what we’re talking about here.
I struggle with finding the tone that accepts disagreement and invites discussion. Part of that is that I know there are people in my real life who read my blog and whose opinions I don’t want to have to navigate but part of it is simply not having my sea legs in all aspects of my life. I have always had a hard time finding the assertive tone without overshooting into aggressive.
I find it hilarious that somehow two incredibly disparate topics (watching others have sex and blogging etiquette) have become intertwined! Personally I prefer PARTICIPATING in sex (M or F) and I like it when everyone can get along even if they have different opinions. Hmmm, I guess those two aren’t as different as I thought – they’re both about playing nicely with others!
I can’t say I’ve really been involved in any heated online discussions and I can’t think of a post that really offended me (it takes a lot to offend me). I have no tolerance for stupidity or biggotry but authors like that are generally easy to spot and I don’t hang around their blogs.
I have, however, been put off by a couple comments that have been left on my favorite blogs. I think, once I find a blog I like, I tend to become protective of the author and it bothers me if someone leaves what seems like a mean-spirited comment. But unless it’s blatantly by someone who isn’t a regular reader, I won’t usually engage the commenter.
On my own blog I tend to try to keep myself reined in somewhat because, although it’s my space and I know I can write whatever I want, I choose to be a little careful because I don’t want to put people off by the full force of my opinionated personality. I’m sure, as I become more comfortable as a blogger, I will feel more free to let it all hang out (this is your fair warning!). I treat my blogging friends like I do my other friends: by and large I’ve chosen people with whom I’ve found some common ground but we aren’t always going to agree on everything. I wouldn’t throw away a friendship because of one disagreement or difference of opinion (unless is was a MAJOR one) and I don’t stop reading a favorite blog because of one post or comment.
Julia’s comment about playing nicely with others in all our playgrounds – bed and blog – cracked me up. But she has a point, PLAY NICE or go away.
I love that this has become such a great forum for expressing how it is we navigate the blogs of others and how we DO get protective of our blog friends, their insights and their groping (in a purely figurative sense) towards their own understanding of whatever issue, controversial or not, that they are exploring.
Chili and Auntie specifically mentioned the point I always come to when I consider the basis of my indignation or being appalled – what can I take away from this to further my understanding of the way the world works and am I being a narrow-minded moron?
Evolution is messy and sometimes, those messes splatter on other people; this is a community and if we’re growth-minded, civilized people, we work through issues together.
[...] not always easy to determine when reading the written word (and we have been down that road already, haven’t we?) but when I throw this symbol up somewhere that’s usually a pretty good [...]